This episode has been automatically transcribed by AI, please excuse any typos or grammatical errors.

Chris: Former hacker turned security researcher, Mike Jones, spent several years as a signal intelligence operator in the military and was also an operator in several underground hacking groups with ties to APTs. His killer podcast, Haunted Hacker is absolutely just tearing through the industry right now. The haunted hacker himself, Mike Jones joins me.

Mike, man, it’s been a long time coming! Welcome to Barcode, my friend. 

Mike: Heck yeah, man. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Chris: Talk me through the evolution of the Haunted Hacker. Were you hacking at a young age? 

Mike: Oh yeah. I think some of the very first things I hacked was like the little professor calculator that would talk as you, did your little equations.

And I found ways to manipulate the voice on the board and things like that. And I was building like rom bugs at the age 10 and 12. 

Chris: Oh, that’s cool man. So, 10 and 12. So did you have family members that were in the technology at that time or was this just the passion that you developed on your own?

Mike: Oh no. So, my dad worked at NSA when I was a kid, and he was into technology in a big way. In a big way. So, I got into a lot of stuff. He did like electronics and ham radio. So, I took those from him. 

Chris: Cool, man. So, then you had access to the tech. I’m curious then, how did you learn hacking?

Did you know other people that were hacking at that time or, did you have influencers that you followed during that time?

Mike: Yeah. So back in the day it wasn’t that I had people around me that were hacking or that were, had that kind of mindset, but I always had a curious mind.

I always tell people that as humans we’re born as hackers. We have to learn how to adapt to the environment. We have to learn how to speak and communicate. So, we’re all born with that, I guess inherent. Hacking ability. With me, it was just, I took a little bit further. I think some of that has to do with the Asperger’s and stuff like that.

When I focus on something, laser focus on something, I do it to the extreme. There, there is no, doing it midway or doing it, efficiently. For me it’s everything or nothing. So, I dove into technology and just love taking things apart. 

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And that mindset is embedded in you.

Mike: For sure. And when you look at today’s devices, I’m being put together piece by piece, like cyber genetically with hearing aids and a pacemaker. So, technology’s gonna be a part of me forever. And as I get older and then I start getting things replaced, like electronically it’s weird because I remember as a kid watching movies that, depicted that kind.

You know, The billion-dollar man, stuff like that. It’s just amazing how far we’ve come and it’s so exciting. And I think the world of VR and that mixed reality I think is really gonna open some doors. Yeah, 

Chris: Definitely, man. Yeah, so you were immersed in the tech realm at such a young age. You eventually you entered the military, right?

Where you were focused on signals intelligence. From my understanding involves intercepting foreign communication signals. Is that a proper description? How would you describe what signal intelligence is? 

Mike: Yeah, pretty much intercepting anything RF. We have tons of RF that floats around us in our environment every day including cell phone signals radio, tv, all that stuff.

So, in an environment, in a battlefield or a theater of conflict that type of collection is super important. So that’s signal intelligence and that’s, it really sparked an interest in me that. And a capability I didn’t know I had. And that, that came with the math skills. And then I just really took that to the extreme like I do everything.

And really pushed on it and learned as much as I could. And then when I got out, it just opened up the doors for everything. 

Chris: And how long were you in the military doing that? 

Mike: A total of 13 years. I went into the military the first time back during the first Gulf War, not to date myself or anything.

And so, for those of you who were born after that, yes. In ‘92 we were in Iraq the very first time. So that was the first time I went in and then I reenlisted right after nine 11 wrapped the planes, hit the building and I went into signal intelligence then because I thought, there’s a huge gap and that gap is intel.

Chris: So then while you were in the military, what do you feel was the driving factor that just helped you stay interested in that specific line of work? 

Mike: I think with a lot of people going to the military, you go in with the idea of patriotism and like really wanting to fight for your country and the wrongs have been, carried out. But the problem with that mentality and that urge of adrenaline and patriotism is that once you get in there and you get exposed to certain things and with the top-secret security clearance, that happens a lot. Some of the things that you might see, you might not agree with.

And that kind of got me thinking. Why are we here? Why are we doing this? And I think that people are still asking that, especially after Thecal in Afghanistan, we pulled out after we’d spent 20 years there trying to free people. So yeah, I think that drove me in a direction of mentally and spiritually, I think going after exposure and disclosing secrets and coverups and just the.

The muck of the world, basically. And so that took me off into a direction of activism, but at the same time, I was still working commercial jobs and I maintained a nine to five job the entire time. And so that, that helped me a lot. Being able to work in different industries while working in activism, gave me insight to a lot of stuff.

Chris: Yeah. And you mentioned hackivism, how would you describe hacktivism? And tell me a little bit more about your involvement. 

Mike: Sure. So, getting involved in activism for me it was taking that patriotism and turning it around to something that was more realistic. Something that really needed some sort of eyes on and exposure and something to make some sort of impact.

And I think that we did that within the hacktivist groups that I was in, like and some of the other groups. But the problem is when you look back at the way that we did things, we could have done ’em a lot better and a lot differently. And I think that’s why there was, there’s so much splintering that went on.

But yeah, so that, that was my sense of hacktivism. And when I say hacktivism, it was more of any way to get the data or the information. that we needed to expose either civil rights violations or, any kind of, violation like that and expose the truth about things. And some of that, went as far as tracking, email databases or just databases in general.

So that, that’s where the hack portion comes in. Yeah. A lot of people now, I think the sense of hacktivism was lost along the way. And I think that’s when everything went kinetic and people started getting physical at some of these hacktivists or some of these protests, riots. I think that when things went physical, I think that’s when we lost the true ideal in the sense of what we were doing.

And then people started hijacking the movement. So that, that’s hacktivism in a very condensed short period.

Chris: Yeah. And you know that from the outside looking in, you hear Hacktivism getting a bad rep.Although like you said, ill intent is not always the case. 

Mike: I think a lot of it there was good that was done too.

Communications out of Iran during their issues, who do you think helped construct that whole issue? Some of the things that were triggered from some of the stuff we did were actually good things that help people.

Chris: Yeah. Absolutely. So I do wanna hit on the podcast, man.

You just surpassed two years, not long ago, so congrats on that, man. That’s a huge accomplishment! What do you feel has been the biggest take away for you personally during the time that you’ve been podcasting?

Mike: I think the biggest thing that stood out to me was bringing people on the show who had these huge resumes.

But what I found was that a lot of those people, just their journey and their path to what created that resume was super interesting. And I learned so much more off the personal side of things. And I did, the actual jobs that they held and how they got them.

We all know networking is a big part of it but hearing the stories that drove people to do what they do. I think it was my biggest interest in starting a podcast was just sharing my story and then hearing other people’s story and letting people share that. 

Chris: Yeah, I love that man. And with each guest that you have on, you uncover their own perspective, and you hear their own story.

You’ll never hear the same story twice.

Mike: No. And then hearing some of the people that, that I’ve had on Richard time just hearing his story was just phenomenal. And in reading his book Mobius, a memoir just really gave me insight into him as an individual to you. So just those experiences, like being able to share a conversation with someone who’s had that type of experience in their life, I think is really.

Chris: Yeah, man. So, I read that the idea for the Haunted Hacker podcast was conceptualized over a single glass suburban on a mountaintop!

Mike: Maybe a few more than just a single glass.

Chris: Okay we’ll say that the last glass is the one that counted then. And they say to avoid drinking alcohol at high level altitudes, but it worked for you.

Mike: It was weird because it wasn’t really a podcast. very first thought wasn’t I want to do a podcast. I thought, I’m just gonna do a Zoom and invite people to jump on and I’ll just talk about random stuff that, that I do or that I’m interested in. And it became more of a, we want to hear more about you and about other people.

And so, I brought on the first guest. It went from there, but the very the conception of it started out just the way that it’s described with the bourbon. I think that there was actually one episode where I used to do four and five hour podcasts, live podcast on Zoom. And I think there was one point where on the very first or second, we were celebrating, and we had quite a few drinks and I think that I ended up just calling it quits in the middle of the podcast and going to bed.

Then everybody just, was curious and confused where I went, so they just continued. But those, the early days were so crazy. There was no organization, and it was just hours long. It was nothing to be on a podcast for five or six hours. 

Chris: Now, were you into podcasts yourself at that time?

Did you have any idea in terms. Topics or guests that you wanted to include, or did you just, wing it and then, see that success eventually evolve over time? 

Mike: The only exposure to, what you would consider a podcast a day for me was Joe Rogan his podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience.

And funny enough it wasn’t really a podcast, it was a radio show, but I still considered a podcast back in the day. It was Howard Stern. Those were like, two of those were two of my influencers. I liked the way that they were pretty raw and genuine, but that was my exposure to what a podcast should be.

How to get there. I had no idea, man, there was no structure. There was no sit down and read a book. It was just, we will see what works and what doesn’t. 

Chris: Yeah. I think that’s a reason that, that you are so successful with this is that you didn’t follow someone else’s pattern, , you understand the sort of communication skills needed by hearing Stern and Rogan, but you wrote your own blueprint which I respect and I think that has contributed to your success thus far.

Mike: Oh, for sure. I think that just not having the professional experience of podcasting or any kind of entertainment, I think that kind of gave me the upper hand because I didn’t want to be profess. I didn’t want, I didn’t want to enter into the whole commercial world of it. But what’s funny is that’s where it’s going.

I got my first partnership with Pia, private Internet Access, and they’ve been great. But if you would’ve told me back when I started this, that’s where I would be today. I would tell you’re crazy. I wouldn’t have done it. I’ve been like, not, I’m done. 

Chris: Yeah, I know you’re passionate about this industry which is a key element as well.

And I feel like you have a true passion for what you speak on, and you keep it real man, regardless of if you have x number of listeners or an infinite number of listeners.

Mike: Yeah, it’s weird because like the guests that I’ve had on you asked about that. What’s really cool is if you look at the guest list that I have, I’ve had on the show, a lot of ’em are just really good friends of mine.

And it’s just a casual conversation. That’s the way that I like to keep it. But you’re right I, I do it because I enjoy doing it and I want to like historically record what it was like for us. so that people down the road can watch it or whatever. If I had zero viewers, I don’t care.

It’s really going into an archive to be safer history. They don’t have to watch it now, but someday somebody probably will. 

Chris: What a critical time in history we’re living in right now, transitioning out of the pandemic. So, what’s next for you, man? Can you share with us what direction you’re taking your show in 2023 and.

Mike: Yeah, man. I got a really cool idea that I’m working on. I’m actually going to take the podcast into the Metaverse in 2023. I got this really cool Insta 360 VR camera. And so, I’m gonna start recording the episodes. I’m gonna design a little studio. To record the episodes and then also plan live in the metaverse within Horizon worlds.

So, we’re working on building that venue within Horizon Worlds, so it looks like an actual podcast studio. And then I broadcast the video live the VR video up on the screen. So, we’re getting there.

Chris: Nice, bro. You need to trademark that.

Mike: I hope I can, but what’s really cool about the metaverse is that I foofoo’d it for a long time.

I just I didn’t want to dive into it, and I thought it was a bunch of BS. But I tell you what, it’s been a cool experience. I’ve seen the worst of it, and I’ve seen the best of it. The best of it being, concerts, entertainment, and stuff like that for people all over the world, just in the metaverse.

So, you literally can go hang out with your friends at a concert in the metaverse, virtually, watch movies, all kinds of stuff. And now they’re gonna do mixed reality. So just the possibilities of that technology and being able to take what we do now, like in cybersecurity, I see, virtual reality being, a knock or a sock in the future.

There’s so many possibilities for it. 

Chris: I agree, man. It’s limitless. When you think about the use cases do you feel like. The technology needs to catch up. Do you feel like organizations need to catch up, or do you feel like it will just evolve organically? What will it take for us to see more of it in today’s society?

Mike: I think that you talked about how is it gonna grow, if it’s gonna grow organically. I think there’s a lot of influence- the big tech giants, like Meta and all those people. I think that there’s a big influence into the metaverse and virtual reality from them, obviously, but, I think, we saw it with the internet when it first came out, and what happens when it gets popular, all the senior national side of the internet is the first thing that’s built.

It’s the first thing that’s functional. And the use cases for the internet then later comes down the road. And I’m seeing that in the Metaverse already. Just some of the clubs were supposed to be 18 and up in, in horizon world. Kids can speak a voice and that’s all they’re doing.

There’s no controls and I’ve just I’ve seen the worst part of that world so far and I hope they can find a way to reign it in. But just like the internet, when it first came out, it was like the Wild West.

Chris: Is that your cat?

Mike: Yeah. Yeah. My cat seems to either agree or disagree very emphatically.

Chris: Sounds like your cat is a big proponent of internet cat videos.

Mike: Cats, and tacos! 

Chris: But yeah, I think you’re getting ready to tap into an area of the metaverse that I think could be uncharted territory. 

Mike: Yeah, I got the idea actually from another guy that was in the Metaverse, so one of the guys saw that my screen name was Haunted Hacker, and I guess he had recognized a screen.

And asked me if I was that guy. And I said, yeah. He goes, I got someone who wants to meet you, follow me. And we’re actually in Horizon Worlds. So, he took me to a private world that they created, which was a recording studio, and they’d asked me if I wanted to be recorded and do a podcast on their studio.

And I thought, wait a minute, this guy’s got an idea. I’ve already got an established podcast. They don’t, and why not take what I’m doing? And not just doing audio, which is what they wanted to do, but why not do a 360 virtual reality experience where people that are listening to the podcast and watching it can actually be part of, or in that room.

Chris: Yeah, that’s a phenomenal concept, man. Now when you started looking into it more, how challenging was it for you to fully understand the infrastructure needed to run that?

Mike: I think the hardest part was figuring out exactly what it took to make and create virtual reality videos and what was entailed in the protocols and the formats.

Once I figured that out and then just went out and did like a comparison with the cameras, I didn’t go out and spend a ton of money on camera. I think I spent like 400 bucks on my camera. But it does a job and I’ve, I, I toyed with it for a little bit, figured it out, and I recorded my first message on.

And I’m gonna record my first podcast on it next week. So, it should be really cool.

Chris: I can’t wait man. The Metaverse is getting so advanced now. 

Mike: They have talent contest and like the voice type situations. went into one world within Horizon Worlds. They were having like a voice competition where they had an online recording studio that’s pretty popular.

Had a talented contest. and people were jacking in their guitars and singing, and it was amazing. I’m sitting there watching it in the virtual reality world, and it’s like legitimately happening and they’re signing people from this competition, but it’s all taking place within the metaverse. It’s really cool. 

Chris: Yeah. It’s called virtual reality, but to me it’s more like extended reality.

Mike: It’s crazy because one of the questions that, that, that producer asked me, and he’s a pre-established producer, he had these little mushrooms on his virtual desk in his studio. And I said, what are those?

He goes they’re obviously mushrooms. He goes, if we’re trying to figure out, you can help us with this. We’re trying to figure out a way to make metaverse drugs so when people take them, it makes the experience seem like they’ve taken. No way. So, they’re, they’re trying to mimic everything that happens in the real world into the metaverse, good or bad.

Chris: And you’re getting that intel from within the metaverse, so you are having real conversations. And that is the ultimate intel of a Metaverse experience, right? Because again, if you’re not experiencing it firsthand, it’s an outside looking in perspective. 

Mike: And they also take the perspective of the big tech giant who’s given them a kickback to write the article about their product.

Yeah. But the experience is great. If people are looking to find me in the horizon world, you can find me in venues. I’m still on the same name, puppet hacker, and I try to dive into anything new into the Metaverse and that includes the doors that are like shut to the general public, which are invitational only, that are like some really strange places.

So, if you do jump in, let me know and I’ll take you on a tour of those places. 

Chris: Nice. I’ll be on! And anyone else listening to this that’s already on Horizon Worlds, look for “the haunted hacker”. 

Mike: Yeah, I picked Haunted Hacker so that people would know that was me. And in my actual avatar within the virtual world actually looks like me.

But with the beard, I’m gonna have to correct that this week, but yeah, it was quite a couple weeks ago. 

Chris: Yeah. And for those that do know you I’m actually talking to a Beardless haunted hacker which is unlike you. So, tell me how that happened!

Mike: We had a me, Matt Lee, Ian Richardson, and a ton of other people a bunch of bearded wizards from the IT world.

We said that we would shave our beards off if we reached a hundred thousand dollars raised for charity for this cyber beard shave charity that mass. We raised $120,000 and so my beard came off yesterday and I recorded it for I think it’s called it World or something like that conference this week.

But it is coming back. It today is day one of letting it grow back, but I did it for a good cause and there was a lot of really cool nonprofits that we raised money for women who code just a lot of really cool organizations.

Chris: That’s fantastic, man. And you don’t look bad, dude.

When I shave my beard, I can’t look at myself in the mirror. 

Mike: I think we all feel that way. Once you get attached to that beard in, in that covering, once it comes off the shock, the initial shock and trauma I’ve seen your own face is horrible. 

Chris: It is. It’s part of your identity.

Mike: Bro, I’m telling you like me out in front of my apartment building my beard literally would stop traffic.

There was a lady, this sweet lady, who drove the tour bus here in, in Chattanooga and she passed by the front of the building every day. And I happened to be out there, and she literally stopped in middle the street one day to tell me that my beard game was on point. She was such a sweet lady, but it literally stopped traffic.

And when I told my girlfriend that, she was like, oh, not for long. We’re getting that thing off your face.

Chris: So, tell me about Hackers for Vets and talk to me about your mission with that. 

Mike: Sure. So, I got the idea for Hackers for Vets when, I went through the process of filing for disability through the VA and what I found was that there’s literally nobody that will help you. There’s nobody who like guide you through that process.

And I thought, I thought back to when I first got outta the military and what it was like coming outta the military and the people who are doing the debriefing and trying to get us ready for the civilian world. These were guys who didn’t necessarily have the same jobs that I had or even the same qualifications or clearance level.

So, the help for me or for people like me wasn’t there. They didn’t really know what to. So I wanted to make it easier for guys to transition from the military. My biggest problem when I left the military was, I was on an enlisted pay rate, which if those of you who know back then and still now today, like enlisted a lot of them qualify for food stamps and government assistance.

Cause that’s how little money they make. So coming outta the military, I was a young father, I didn’t have a whole lot of money and I had to make it. And I don’t wanna see people have to go through that. So, I thought, how can I help? And I thought I could do vouchers, or I could do an academy, or I could do this, or I could do that.

And I thought, you know what? No, I, let’s give money. See how this works. So, I’ll give them 10,000 in December. To a veteran who’s applied for it. And all I ask is that they put the good use in helping them transition from military into cyber. And that’s the only stipulation is they have to be leaving the military with an ongoing discharge going into a technology.

 Associated field. And I, it’s just a way to help ’em out, make things easier. So far, I’ve interviewed a couple candidates and just hearing their stories, like it’s really amazing some of the stuff that these guys have gone through. And just make life a little bit easier for ’em.

Chris: Love it.

And where can our listeners find out more about Hackers for Vets? Or is there a link on your site.

Mike: Yeah, there’s a link on the hauntedhacker.com. And on that link, they can get the email whatnot to submit their application. 

Chris: Okay. So, I finally have to ask you, how did you get the name Haunted Hacker?

Mike: It’s really funny how it came out. So, we started the podcast in October a couple years ago, and I love Halloween. That’s my thing. That’s my jam. I like anything horror. for those of you who see my apartment, like it’s decorated like a, like Dracula castle. I just love the darker side of history and the darker side of things.

So, when it came out it was like, so what should I call this? And I thought it’s October and I have all these ghosts in my past. You keep following me, three litter agencies. So, I thought, why not? Why don’t I just call it the haunted hacker? 

Chris: Nice. Now, do you ever get into listening to, ghost Hunting or paranormal type podcasts? Is that something that you’re into?

Mike: Oh, I do. Yeah. So, on my first anniversary podcast, I had a lady from Chattanooga. Her name is Amy Petula on the show, and she runs, she owns the ghost tours of Chattanooga. And she also wrote a bunch of books about, some murders that happened in North Georgia and dark history stuff.

Had her on the show. Really cool. We talked about a lot of really neat stuff. But I’d love to like actually interview somebody from a and e, one of those ghost centers. I used to watch Ghost Hunter when it first came out. I’ve been watching ’em for years. I watched ’em get old. So, I love that kind of stuff. 

Chris: Oh yeah, I definitely do too. 

Mike: I’m the Rob Zombie house a thousand corpses type. So, it, the scarier the better.

Chris: Yeah, that was a good one. If you had to select one, what would you say is your favorite horror film?

Mike: So, in recent time, that’s a tough one, man.

But I’ll take it back to the most influential in my life. And I think that was Salem’s Lot by Stephen King. Yes. That movie as a kid scared me to death, horrified. And that got me into reading Stephen King as a little kid. And so, I’ve read him since I’ve probably don’t know enough to read.

Chris: I was into the SAW movies. 

Mike: Yeah, I like the SAW movies. I like the Escape Room horror movies that have recently been coming out. Oh, yeah. I haven’t seen those yet. Yeah, those are pretty interesting because the escape rooms, it’s kinda like the whole escape room idea, but it’s not, you either get out or not.

It’s you die or you don’t. So, they have to figure out all these challenges to get out of dying in this place. So, it’s pretty cool. 

Chris: I’ll check it out, man. So, you said you’re in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Talk to me about the bar situation there. I like to hit up Speakeasies or hidden bars and so if I was out in Chattanooga, what unique bar like that would you direct me to?

Mike: So, the best place that, for that, I think cause I’m in, into the sort of the same thing and there’s a place called Unknown Caller in Chattanooga. And the way to get into this bar is through a red telephone booth, and you walk into this telephone booth, and you have to pick up the receiver to get the code to get into the door.

So, once you get into the door, there’s a big picture of the queen behind, behind the bar, and they have all kinds of really cool paintings. It’s a hipster vibe to it. There, and, I would be wrong if I didn’t mention Brian Joyce. He’s he has a talk show on 102.3 here in Chattanooga, but he also has a bar downtown that’s called the Blue Light, which is like a hip hop bar.

So, he pulls a lot of business there. 

Chris: Nice man. I’ll put it on my list.

Mike: Have you been to the church? In Denver? Bro, go to the church. Go to the church. Church in Denver and Excalibur in Chicago. Excalibur’s haunted. And it’s in a church. An old church. It’s pretty cool. It’s looks like an old gothic church and the one in Denver is the same way.

It’s an old church and it’s like a live music venue. I’ve been to a rave there. It’s really cool Bar. So, if you get to chance in Denver, hit that up. The Excalibur, you can read about it online. It’s haunted. I think the basement they used to during the Chicago fires, I believe, I may be mistaken.

But I think it was Chicago Fires. The basement was a makeshift morgue. And so, the club itself is haunted.

Chris: So, I just heard last call. You got time for one more? If you opened a cybersecurity theme bar, what would the name be and what would your signature drink be called?

Mike: Man, I hate to rip off a franchise, but cyberpunk 2077 has a right man. The whole game that I, I think it would be a tie between a bar out of that. Or a bar themed after Watchdog’s Legion, like an English, UK, England, London type five post-apocalyptic type deal. I think it’d be cool.

Chris: Yeah, I like that man. But you can’t take that name though. 

Mike: I’d call it the Haunted Hacker’s Haunted Hotel. 

Chris: I like that man. And what would your signature drink be? You gotta make it bourbon!

Mike: Yeah, that, that’s my go to the bourbon for sure. I was in, where was I at? I think I was in Manchester.

Yeah. I was speaking at the Manchester United Stadium over in London or Manchester couple years ago. And I went to this place called, I want to say it was like called the chemist or mixologist or something, but it was like you walk in and then drinks all came in like these weird test tube and beaker looking things and smoke in and, but they were really good drinks.

Like they were quality drinks, but they had this cool like lab field to it. I think that’d be cool too, those type of. Or maybe an infusion bar. Like a cannabis infusion bar. Yeah, man. Infused drinks, cocktails, food desserts. In the metaverse. In the metaverse? Yeah. Or a legal state near you. 

Chris: Listen, like those mushrooms provide that experience during your podcast.

Mike: Oh, for sure. No, I’ll tell you what, read a book. I’m gonna plug this book that I read years ago. Daniel Suarez wrote the book and it’s called Snow Crash, I believe. I think it was Daniel Suarez, I be wrong, but the book’s called Snow Crash and it was a, basically that idea. They were jacking into a different reality and snow crash was a drug was being spread around and that reality was messed everything up.

So, it’s the same idea. I That idea is being brewed right now. So, it’s crazy. We’re talking about it, but it’s actually happening. 

Chris: So, Mike, where can our listeners check out the Haunted Hacker podcast online? 

Mike: So, you can catch a podcast on YouTube, the video portion and on every major platform including Pandora and Spotify on the audible side of it, on the audio side of it.

And you can find everything you need to find@thehondahacker.com including my email address and ways to get ahold of me and place up. 

Chris: Mike, thanks for stopping by for this one-on-one man. It was long overdue and yeah, I’ll see you soon. On Horizon Worlds, man. Let’s link up for a virtual beer.

Mike: Awesome man. Appreciate it, brother, this honor being here. Had a good time.

Chris: Thanks man. Take care.